Download Game! Currently 135 players and visitors. Last logged in:AranonSebaotFuserOmril

BatMUD Forums > Ideas-wanted > Re: Wrong armor slots

 
 
#1
18 Nov 2005 13:21
 
 
It has been nagging me quite some time as there are many armor types that take
wrong/inappropiate slots according to their real life counter parts. While i
wrote Favorit about the armor lsits and couple bugs i decited to point out
some the actual armor blunders.

Scale mail
The only part armor splint mail takes/cowers in any variation is the torso
slot. The concept and structure of a \"splint mail\" does not
include head, neck & hands parts/slots at all. If you extend the scales
then yes, it will cower you tights/upper half of your legs but you could still
wear pants. Also the scales can be exteneded to cower upper part of arms but
not to cower the elbow(s) of arms (bending your arm would be hazardous).
Making neck cower from _scales_ wihtout making sharp edges would be a
craftmanship i would just have to see. It is out right impossible. Making
scale mail cower hand(s) or elbow(s) is just not possible. The structure would
either a) leave clear gaps in protection b) be so prohibitive in movement that
it would do more harm than good. It IS possible to do bracer(s) from scales
but
As picture tells more than 1000 words...
Scale mail covering upper arms
http://members.aol.com/dargolyt/TheForge/SCALE.GIF
Scale bracers
http://www.pegasusvalley.com/armorguild/modules/gallery/albums/strider/ScaleBracer1.jpg

Padded armour, banded mail, splint mail...
...will not cower your arms, legs, head, feet or hands no mater how they are
crafted. Yes, helmet can be a padded and arm protections may made/enforced
with (rough and impractical) splints, you could even make greaves using the
banded technique (tough solid one plate would still better), but none of these
armour concepts _require_ that the same kind of technique is used for
protecting the rest of body. Like in the case of scale armour, all these
should only take the slot torso.

Chain mail/anything:
Protective garments maid of chain is the most flexible protection known and it
comes in any kind of forms imaginable but none of those are show in the game
_at all_. No chain hoods, no chain leggings, no chain arms, no chain bracers,
no chain leggings, no chain boots, no chain. About only thing that could not
be made from chain is gloves (or actually yes, it is possible but you need
fine machinery to be able to do em). My point? More chain armors.
Some chain uses
http://www.pegasusvalley.com/armorguild/modules/gallery/albums/strider/Mail_open_front_shirt_and_mask.sized.jpg

Brestplate
...protects only front side of torso. Cuirass, in the other hand, is a
brestplate combined with back plate thus covering the whole torso.

O-yoroi
...was designed and fitted for a mounted archer, enough said. Quote from
eclyclopedia \"It was a big boxy armor that was for the most part
inflexible and not form fitting. Consequently the O-Yoroi was not used by the
infantry or by spearmen. The boxy shape prevented the samurai from using the
sword with the free, fluid motion that is needed in hand to hand
combat\". Another quote from article about samurai armor history
\"It (O-yoroi) remained in the armoury of some of the most ancient and
noble samurai families and became something of a status symbol. Often these
samurai would wear the do-maru or the haramaki-do for battle and the more
magnificent o-yoroi for parades or other non-military gatherings.\"
points out quite nicely that all those players wandering around in O-yoroi\'s
are in wrong armor if they are planing to swing in foot and in melee.

Full plate (that is described as a Battle suit in the help files)
Is always custom made to its user. Parts of it could be used by others but as
a whole (wihtout extensive refitting), no. Player could/should be able to hire
a merchant to craft him a full plate for meager price of LOT + materials. Why?
Full plate was worth back then about as much as a family house is now. Full
plate gives/should give unimagitabile protection against stabbs and slashs
attacks. Protection against actuall bashing damage should be also remarkable
but their stunn&concussion effect should be not lessened (flails,
warhammers and maces were only things causing consearn in person in full
plate). Here is an nice quote about (opposite to common belife) that full
plate hindered warior wearing it less than other armos as its weight was
distrupted equaly \"While it looks heavy, a full plate armour set could
be as light as only 45 pounds if well made of tempered steel. The weight was
so well spread over the body that a fit man could run, or jump into his
saddle. That it was necessary to lift a fully armed knight onto his horse with
the help of pulleys is a myth originating in Mark Twain\'s A Connecticut Yankee
in King Arthur\'s Court, and has no historical base.\". Tanks should be
seeking full plates custom fitted to them made of material X as it is The
armor for them, instead of running around in o-yoroi\'s that is designed for
mounted use.
And repairing a full plate is equaly consuming and expencive than repairing
all the invidual parts of it (Cervelliere (skull cap) / Great helm, Charnel
(piece that secures helmet to backplate/brestplate), Couter (elbow), Cuirass
(Backplate & Breastplate), Cuisse(upper legs), Gauntlet(hand),
Greave(lower leg), Gorget(neck), Rerebrace(upper arm), Sabaton(feet)) and you
should be able to replace parts with other equipment if enough customization
and tinkering is done (by merchants naturaly).

Point of this ramble and lecturing about armours and how they work and all?
Well first of all to remove the incorrect slot usages (Ngggggggh!
Incorrectness must be extinguished, Perfection shal prevail!).
Secondly, some Wiz that is out of ideas could partialy recode the armo(u)r
system by chopping the existing (unreal) armours to separate parts and and add
couple slots (elbow, shoulders, kneecaps, face).
Thirdly, that same Wiz could code the customization and armor making (things
for our merchants/alcemists, refitting magical ones would/could need also
presence of a magican to keep the magical abilities intact), thus (magical)
armor pieces found around the realm could be (re)fitted to match with the
existing armor(s) so that they would not drop off constantly or leave gaps or
anything like that.
Fourthly, to enhance the present armor & cloth layering. You should be
able to wear scarf top of you nice plate neck guard or nice braclet on your
leather bracerss or even wear surcoat over your armor. The balancing down
side? Each time that slot gets hit, both items are checked for shape loss.

A :-D hits you.

 
Rating:
-6
Votes:
29
 
 
Blacksmith
84d, 2h, 21m, 15s old
Level:
52
 
 
#2
18 Nov 2005 14:37
 
 
again we come to the point when you must stop comparing bat&rl... you dont
have swords with living snakes in rl right?

This place is reserved for something more intelligent.

 
Rating:
1
Votes:
16
 
 
Calmis
90d, 8h, 54m, 12s old
Level:
49
 
 
#3
19 Nov 2005 03:20
 
 
This is a long and thoroughly researched news post. However, terms like BatMUD
weapon and armour names are vague generalizations used to give us numerical
code classifications, rather than the other way around.

As a researcher of such things myself, I know there is not a single universaly
accepted clinical definition for, for example, "spear". Different cultures use
different materials and construction for their own style -- throwing,
stabbing, even parrying. The same is true for armours. Saying something like
"sacle mail only covers the torso" is like saying "you can't have chainmail
gauntlets because chainmail was always a full hauberk" or the like. If you
really, really insisted on it, I might be willing to change the armour _names_
to "scale mail suit", "splint mail suit" etc.

I am also very reluctant to change the slots on anything at this point. Too
many pieces of already existing eq would be altered. The different fbody suits
exist with their own advantages and disadvantages, even though everyone only
uses o-yoroi (admit it!) and they will continue to do so. If I were to, say,
change o-yoroi to include the head and hands, and/or change the full plate to
lose the neck, a lot of players and some coders would get upset, and rightly
so.

The fact of the matter is that,as most of you know, the "armour type" and the
"armour name" don't hae to match. Examples are easy to think of (Digga's
jacket was a "vest" for years upon years). Coders can take whatever
interpretation of the armour name as well as the protectoin/slots they want
their creation to cover, and mix and match the two at will. Changing the
armour types slots will only cause problems we don't need, no matter how you
feel about the definitions of armour names. We just don't use the as carefully
as you do.

Shinarae Lluminus

 
Rating:
10
Votes:
14
 
 
Shinarae
A r c h w i z a r d
1y, 196d, 11h, 3m, 12s old
Level:
200 [Wizard]
 
 
#4
19 Nov 2005 03:20
 
 
Quote:
This is a long and thoroughly researched news post.
Not realy. the name BlackSmith does have some RL reflections. Forge is not
unfamiliar place to me. There is, to my knowledge, two blacksmith in this game
(terkkuja vaan sinne).
Quote:
However, terms like BatMUD
weapon and armour names are vague generalizations used to give us numerical
code classifications, rather than the other way around.
They still could server as those. e.g. chain leggings could never have better
crushing defence compared to plate or splint leggings (true as long we are
talking real materials, no paper plate leggings).
Quote:
As a researcher of such things myself, I know there is not a single universaly
accepted clinical definition for, for example, \"spear\". Different cultures use
different materials and construction for their own style -- throwing,
stabbing, even parrying.
Spear is a hafted weapon that has edged point for piercing forth-and-back
attacks, main purpse to fight cavalry or if balanced enough for throwing.
Weapons with long shafts and bladed ends used for vertical or horizontal
attacks (having the blade in 90 degree angle for the saft) is called polearm.

Material can be anything, the shape of blade can be anything (ranseur, glaive,
long spear, trident), the use of it defines it name/class. There has been no
(need) for such researches as the uses are/is obious. No need to make global
defination&/research of usage of car, its role as a net weight is quite
impractical.
Sure thing i can use battleaxe for throwing or thrusting but it is not designed
for that thus you will be wastly out performed by person using rapier or
javelin for those same moves.
Quote:
The same is true for armours. Saying something like
\"sacle mail only covers the torso\" is like saying \"you can\'t have chainmail
gauntlets because chainmail was always a full hauberk\" or the like. If you
really, really insisted on it, I might be willing to change the armour _names_
to \"scale mail suit\", \"splint mail suit\" etc.
Scale is way to make armor. Mail is something worn over your torso.
Sacele armor (that inplyes multi partioned armor that is made along the scale
tecnique) is something that cowers more than simply your torso. Othervise it
is not armor, it is just piece of armor called torso part of scale armor.
Sacle _mail_ does not carry these same assumptions. It cowers your torso, thats
it.
Sleaved hooded long chain mail cowering head, neck, torse, arms, (upper) legs
would be a armour up for its name. If this kind of change is all that can be
asked and possible to achive at the moment, then please, do make the changes.
Quote:
I am also very reluctant to change the slots on anything at this point. Too
many pieces of already existing eq would be altered. The different fbody suits
exist with their own advantages and disadvantages, even though everyone only
uses o-yoroi (admit it!) and they will continue to do so. If I were to, say,
change o-yoroi to include the head and hands,
Hands? No. Head, neck, arms legs? Yes. Dex penalty while wearing it? Yes, known
FACT that the armor hamppered melee moves should be reflect some how. If not
the exciting ones, then the new ones.
Uproar or no uproar, tanks running around in archer armor because it is best
does not give any \"well balanced\" game image.
Quote:
and/or change the full plate to lose the neck,
That, would not then again be full plate. Full plate cowers you from head to
toes. Only part not cowered with metal is area under your feets and even that
is cowered with hardened leather. Those that dont comprehend the overall
protection it gives think full plate = tank and you are armed with pistol. If
you can hit trough the eye slit, great! If not, prepear for defeat if you dont
happen to find crack in that armor.

Scale, banded, chain, splint, leather, studded leather, plate, rings are all
methods of making almost any piece of armory.
Suit of armour can be ensambled from torso piece that is made using banded
techinque, while arms and neck cowering is done by chains and upper legs with
scales. What should you call it? Anything except scale, chain or banded
armour/mail. Why? it is made using multiple styles/it cowers more than sipmly
the torso slot. Call it \"the dragon riders armour\" if you want but plain
scale mail it is not.

Full plate does indeed use chain techinque for protection places that plates
would be inpractical but the fact that every part of the armor uses plating
as a techique entitles it for its name of Full plate.
Quote:
The fact of the matter is that,as most of you know, the \"armour type\" and the
\"armour name\" don\'t hae to match. Examples are easy to think of (Digga\'s
jacket was a \"vest\" for years upon years). Coders can take whatever
interpretation of the armour name as well as the protectoin/slots they want
their creation to cover, and mix and match the two at will. Changing the
armour types slots will only cause problems we don\'t need, no matter how you
feel about the definitions of armour names. We just don\'t use the as carefully
as you do.
That is sad as the fluff is as important as the crunch.
I know that when puting new material out is it easy to use the first one that
pops in to mind (this weapon use axes blade and hammers head. warhammer or
axe. hey polerams have know to have both! lets class it as a polearm even if
it is one handed weapon) but if not enough tinkering on the fluff side is
made, you end up in a situations where there is players running around the
game in archers/cavalry armor.

Ask yourself, how seriously would you take a mud that were the best weapons
would be shovels? Now think our mud. The best of the best are wearing scarps
of some left over armors collected together, like some poor mercenarys. Where
are those glad in metal true bad-ass fighter?

Again, no one knows about magic an such, BUT if YOU would be the slayer of
gods, raper of moms bad-ass fighter brawler, would you ask the local mage to
enchant your underpants to give you more protection or your plate leggings?
Hmm? Specialy when you know that there is a pesky adventurer party going to
kick your ass. You want to be defetead in your underpants or wearing something
more ...i don know ..more reasonable?
Shal we se _in the future_ more fighters running around in underpants or
wearing plate leggings?

A :-D hits you.

 
Rating:
-11
Votes:
26
 
 
Blacksmith
84d, 2h, 40m, 15s old
Level:
52