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BatMUD Forums > General > Re: Dear Wizards
I've been an on and off player for years now. Every time I come back, I find
myself browsing through these forums, especially guild sections to see the
tunes made and the posts of those who have been using the guild and I just
can't wrap my head around on why there's so many posts full of great thought
and idea(even if not possible to do) being left unanswered by you. It just
feels odd because afaik Batmud tries to appeal to new players and keep the ones
playing currently. So by not answering posts(may they be reasonable to you or
not) you are making it feel like useless to communicate with you about the
game. I know forums can be a place for players to discuss also but when you
post something to guilds for example and it clearly says something like
"new ability wanted" or "the problems with the guild" it is
kind of directed to you. So it must be counter productive to leave those
unanswered. There's not even that many of them per month if any. Most posts
have been left unanswered for years so doubt there will be any answers.
For instance I was pondering if going archers would keep my interest up on this
game again since I've never taken that route before. Only to find out all the
"what's wrong with the guild" posts from Archers guild forums which
were unsurprisingly been left unanswered by you. Which to me seems like a
straight message of "don't bother with the guild, there's no changes
coming" but even more so "don't bother with the game, they don't care
about our opinions/ideas". And not to make this too generalized though, I
know you have been putting a lot of thought and time to invent new areas and
functionalities to guilds etc and thank you for that but could you somehow find
time to give answers and some love to these forums which represent the game a
lot by being here for all to read. We don't want this game to sound dead(end)
when there's 3 years old posts hanging around that would have deserved a post
from a wiz?
And please, don't take this as a hate post towards you. This is more like
"I care about the game and it's state" post. Trying to help this
community and player growth and base. Guess it's my
"asiakaslähtöinen" thinking due to my educational
background that forced me to write this post.
myself browsing through these forums, especially guild sections to see the
tunes made and the posts of those who have been using the guild and I just
can't wrap my head around on why there's so many posts full of great thought
and idea(even if not possible to do) being left unanswered by you. It just
feels odd because afaik Batmud tries to appeal to new players and keep the ones
playing currently. So by not answering posts(may they be reasonable to you or
not) you are making it feel like useless to communicate with you about the
game. I know forums can be a place for players to discuss also but when you
post something to guilds for example and it clearly says something like
"new ability wanted" or "the problems with the guild" it is
kind of directed to you. So it must be counter productive to leave those
unanswered. There's not even that many of them per month if any. Most posts
have been left unanswered for years so doubt there will be any answers.
For instance I was pondering if going archers would keep my interest up on this
game again since I've never taken that route before. Only to find out all the
"what's wrong with the guild" posts from Archers guild forums which
were unsurprisingly been left unanswered by you. Which to me seems like a
straight message of "don't bother with the guild, there's no changes
coming" but even more so "don't bother with the game, they don't care
about our opinions/ideas". And not to make this too generalized though, I
know you have been putting a lot of thought and time to invent new areas and
functionalities to guilds etc and thank you for that but could you somehow find
time to give answers and some love to these forums which represent the game a
lot by being here for all to read. We don't want this game to sound dead(end)
when there's 3 years old posts hanging around that would have deserved a post
from a wiz?
And please, don't take this as a hate post towards you. This is more like
"I care about the game and it's state" post. Trying to help this
community and player growth and base. Guess it's my
"asiakaslähtöinen" thinking due to my educational
background that forced me to write this post.
Rating:
3
Votes:
5
Thank you for a thoughtful post. My reply will be in two parts:
1. Expectation management (e.g. "customer support")
2. Knowledge management (e.g. why "simple idea" is not always simple)
First, it's important to be clear that BatMUD is - and always has
been - a hobbyist game, developed and maintained by volunteers. With
that comes that we don't really view players as "customers" or perhaps
have the same kind of service culture a commercial game would - rather
we are enthusiasts allocating our limited time so that fellow gamers
can play. As an all-volunteer operation, it also means it's nobody's
"job" to address guild suggestions - wizards and archwizards are free
to work on whatever happens to feel most important to them at a given
point. Sometimes that is a player issue, sometimes a guild improvement
and sometimes it is new content.
We do read posts - and we have several other channels through which we
get feedback and ideas. And occasionally we end up implementing some
of them, or we include them as part of some larger rewrite. But that
is not a certainty, nor do we have a structured process for deciding
and stating whether something might or might not be done in the
future - again because our developers are volunteers, so coding happens
based on their interests (e.g. there is no "This is a good idea, I am
going to assign it to wizard X for implementation", and even if there
would be, wizard X could refuse). That said, we enjoy a unique benefit
compared to commercial games - the option of joining the ranks of
developers to drive the improvements you crave. To paraphrase JFK's
inaugural address - "ask not what the MUD can do for you, ask what you
can do for the MUD".
The second point concerns knowledge management - especially knowledge
about a guild or other complex game mechanic. Often, the original
author (if still active) is the best person to implement a change,
since they're most familiar with the concept and the code behind it.
For others, varying degrees of study are required to understand how the
guild's systems, themes, and code interconnect.
From experience, even an idea that seems simple on the surface can demand
a significant amount of time from a developer unfamiliar with that guild.
They must ensure that the change doesn't break something else and that it
remains consistent both thematically and technically with the rest of the
game. Some things are relatively straightforward to adjust (changing a few
numbers, for example). But ideas like "guild X needs a mastery system" or
"revamp horseback riding" are far larger undertakings than a short news
post might suggest. They require design work to ensure thematic fit, coding
the new systems, updating related skills or spells, and then testing every-
thing - what sounds like a five-minute idea can easily turn into days or
weeks of work.
BatMUD is a large, intricate game with many guilds and systems. Some
will feel current and well-balanced; others may show their age. We do
our best to fix things that are buggy or fundamentally broken, and
occasionally we rebalance or modernize older systems. However, while
all feedback is appreciated and welcome, we can't promise that every
suggestion will receive a detailed or conclusive reply.
++ Gore
1. Expectation management (e.g. "customer support")
2. Knowledge management (e.g. why "simple idea" is not always simple)
First, it's important to be clear that BatMUD is - and always has
been - a hobbyist game, developed and maintained by volunteers. With
that comes that we don't really view players as "customers" or perhaps
have the same kind of service culture a commercial game would - rather
we are enthusiasts allocating our limited time so that fellow gamers
can play. As an all-volunteer operation, it also means it's nobody's
"job" to address guild suggestions - wizards and archwizards are free
to work on whatever happens to feel most important to them at a given
point. Sometimes that is a player issue, sometimes a guild improvement
and sometimes it is new content.
We do read posts - and we have several other channels through which we
get feedback and ideas. And occasionally we end up implementing some
of them, or we include them as part of some larger rewrite. But that
is not a certainty, nor do we have a structured process for deciding
and stating whether something might or might not be done in the
future - again because our developers are volunteers, so coding happens
based on their interests (e.g. there is no "This is a good idea, I am
going to assign it to wizard X for implementation", and even if there
would be, wizard X could refuse). That said, we enjoy a unique benefit
compared to commercial games - the option of joining the ranks of
developers to drive the improvements you crave. To paraphrase JFK's
inaugural address - "ask not what the MUD can do for you, ask what you
can do for the MUD".
The second point concerns knowledge management - especially knowledge
about a guild or other complex game mechanic. Often, the original
author (if still active) is the best person to implement a change,
since they're most familiar with the concept and the code behind it.
For others, varying degrees of study are required to understand how the
guild's systems, themes, and code interconnect.
From experience, even an idea that seems simple on the surface can demand
a significant amount of time from a developer unfamiliar with that guild.
They must ensure that the change doesn't break something else and that it
remains consistent both thematically and technically with the rest of the
game. Some things are relatively straightforward to adjust (changing a few
numbers, for example). But ideas like "guild X needs a mastery system" or
"revamp horseback riding" are far larger undertakings than a short news
post might suggest. They require design work to ensure thematic fit, coding
the new systems, updating related skills or spells, and then testing every-
thing - what sounds like a five-minute idea can easily turn into days or
weeks of work.
BatMUD is a large, intricate game with many guilds and systems. Some
will feel current and well-balanced; others may show their age. We do
our best to fix things that are buggy or fundamentally broken, and
occasionally we rebalance or modernize older systems. However, while
all feedback is appreciated and welcome, we can't promise that every
suggestion will receive a detailed or conclusive reply.
++ Gore
Rating:
6
Votes:
6
Gore
A r c h w i z a r d
22y, 175d, 7h, 32m, 59s old
Level:
600 [Wizard]
Gore, in his reply, already brought up most of the important points and
diffences of BatMUD versus a more organized development of a commercially
driven game (or a indie game with smaller size of codebase, lesser amount
of diversity in developer skill and/or historical baggage.)
There is one or few more points I would like to raise, however, which I
already somewhat talked about in a personal blog post of mine recently:
How the amount of ideas, feedback, bug/etc reports from players basically
far exceeds the practical amount of "developer resources" we actually have
at our disposal.
This is an issue that cannot be easily overcome, and even if the things Gore
already mentioned weren't a hindrance in making players dreams come true, we
simply do not have the personpower to do that.
Unfortunately it is not a simple question of just somehow acquiring more
codeslaves either - just as Gore said, one does not simply jump into the
codebase to make some changes.
Thus, even luring more people to our merry(?) bunch of immortals would be a
far longer term project - with many probably dropping out and not a quick
fix to the resource problem. (Of the 23 players immorted during last 15
years, most have either disappeared/retired/are mostly idle, so success rate
is not very high.)
(Sometimes in the past when discussing these issues people have suggested
hiring people to work on BatMUD, but that is a very hairy issue in itself
which I won't even go into.)
Anyway, the problem with these .. problems .. is that we are probably stuck
in the situation and have to just live with it. This, of course, is just my
own personal pessimist-realist view - so YMMV.
--
Ggr
diffences of BatMUD versus a more organized development of a commercially
driven game (or a indie game with smaller size of codebase, lesser amount
of diversity in developer skill and/or historical baggage.)
There is one or few more points I would like to raise, however, which I
already somewhat talked about in a personal blog post of mine recently:
How the amount of ideas, feedback, bug/etc reports from players basically
far exceeds the practical amount of "developer resources" we actually have
at our disposal.
This is an issue that cannot be easily overcome, and even if the things Gore
already mentioned weren't a hindrance in making players dreams come true, we
simply do not have the personpower to do that.
Unfortunately it is not a simple question of just somehow acquiring more
codeslaves either - just as Gore said, one does not simply jump into the
codebase to make some changes.
Thus, even luring more people to our merry(?) bunch of immortals would be a
far longer term project - with many probably dropping out and not a quick
fix to the resource problem. (Of the 23 players immorted during last 15
years, most have either disappeared/retired/are mostly idle, so success rate
is not very high.)
(Sometimes in the past when discussing these issues people have suggested
hiring people to work on BatMUD, but that is a very hairy issue in itself
which I won't even go into.)
Anyway, the problem with these .. problems .. is that we are probably stuck
in the situation and have to just live with it. This, of course, is just my
own personal pessimist-realist view - so YMMV.
--
Ggr
Rating:
2
Votes:
2
Ggr wrote:
Gore, in his reply, already brought up most of the important points and
diffences of BatMUD versus a more organized development of a commercially
driven game (or a indie game with smaller size of codebase, lesser amount
of diversity in developer skill and/or historical baggage.)
There is one or few more points I would like to raise, however, which I
already somewhat talked about in a personal blog post of mine recently:
How the amount of ideas, feedback, bug/etc reports from players basically
far exceeds the practical amount of "developer resources" we actually have
at our disposal.
This is an issue that cannot be easily overcome, and even if the things Gore
already mentioned weren't a hindrance in making players dreams come true, we
simply do not have the personpower to do that.
Unfortunately it is not a simple question of just somehow acquiring more
codeslaves either - just as Gore said, one does not simply jump into the
codebase to make some changes.
Thus, even luring more people to our merry(?) bunch of immortals would be a
far longer term project - with many probably dropping out and not a quick
fix to the resource problem. (Of the 23 players immorted during last 15
years, most have either disappeared/retired/are mostly idle, so success rate
is not very high.)
(Sometimes in the past when discussing these issues people have suggested
hiring people to work on BatMUD, but that is a very hairy issue in itself
which I won't even go into.)
Anyway, the problem with these .. problems .. is that we are probably stuck
in the situation and have to just live with it. This, of course, is just my
own personal pessimist-realist view - so YMMV.
--
Ggr
diffences of BatMUD versus a more organized development of a commercially
driven game (or a indie game with smaller size of codebase, lesser amount
of diversity in developer skill and/or historical baggage.)
There is one or few more points I would like to raise, however, which I
already somewhat talked about in a personal blog post of mine recently:
How the amount of ideas, feedback, bug/etc reports from players basically
far exceeds the practical amount of "developer resources" we actually have
at our disposal.
This is an issue that cannot be easily overcome, and even if the things Gore
already mentioned weren't a hindrance in making players dreams come true, we
simply do not have the personpower to do that.
Unfortunately it is not a simple question of just somehow acquiring more
codeslaves either - just as Gore said, one does not simply jump into the
codebase to make some changes.
Thus, even luring more people to our merry(?) bunch of immortals would be a
far longer term project - with many probably dropping out and not a quick
fix to the resource problem. (Of the 23 players immorted during last 15
years, most have either disappeared/retired/are mostly idle, so success rate
is not very high.)
(Sometimes in the past when discussing these issues people have suggested
hiring people to work on BatMUD, but that is a very hairy issue in itself
which I won't even go into.)
Anyway, the problem with these .. problems .. is that we are probably stuck
in the situation and have to just live with it. This, of course, is just my
own personal pessimist-realist view - so YMMV.
--
Ggr
it was the latest post.
I have to say I didn't know that all the money players spend on boons goes to
the upkeep of the servers from a technical point of view without being able to
give anything to the coders. That's a shame. But I do understand it now. I
probably wouldn't be that into using my free time either without any kind of
pay for my troubles, unless I got at least something out of it..
One suggestion comes to my mind but I guess it's not that of a common situation
though.
Nowadays it's really hard to get into coding jobs. There's only a few junior
places open and the requirements do not even nearly fit those who have just
graduated from IT. Maybe it could be possible to get those unemployed junior
coders for a work tryout(työkokeilu) at Batmud? Ofc there's a problem there
too since it would probably take some work from someone to delegate tasks and
help them out. They would however get something to their resumees and Bat
wouldn't be forced to hire them after the 6 months. Even without the before
mentioned, it would be probably worth it to advertise the possibility in IT
schools and job agencies to be an unemployed trainee in Bat Ry and get some
noteworthy experience from coding projects. So it would purely be a useful
hobby.
And I'm not sure but iirc there is a rule where you can't be a player if you
are able to contribute to the game via coding. I don't know how many of us are
currently playing who have coding experience/degrees but maybe removing a rule
if there is one, could probably help with the situation. I for one, could be
interested for example since I never got a coding job after graduating but I
don't want to give up my character(wizzing) in order to code for Batmud. Maybe
it would be possible to somehow prevent the possible abuse cases if one has
both possibilities in the game.
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